US News & Politics

[megacycle]

Both sides do the same thing to each other, hypocrisy is a pretty standard thing for politicians... Hating one side more than the other is dumb because both sides are guilty of the same crime. Republicans thought it was immoral when democrats did not and democrats think it is immoral when republicans do not... it is a tactical game that they play to attack the other side during an election year... look at how immoral this side is so vote for my side, vote for my candidate not their candidate.

[Zracken3]

I think it is valid to both criticize all politicians while also admitting that some are worse than others. I do not like the Democratic Party or the Republican Party. I think the Republican Party is worse in many ways, but this does not excuse the crimes of Democratic politicians. Unfortunately, the two-party system -- which our first-past-the-post, winner-take-all voting system practically demands -- forces us to cast a vote for one or the other if we actually want our vote to count. That isn't a failure of individual people either; the way elections operate in the United States will necessarily lead to a binary political landscape.

I like your point about the politics between the parties being "...a tactical  game..." because I entirely agree. From my point of view, as much as both sides like to demonize and vilify each other, the Democratic Party and the Republican Party are, in essence, just two different colors of the same authoritarian, neoliberal group. I would defy anyone who argued that this country's problems will be solved by just voting Democrat. Ideally, we would recognize how irreparably broken our system of government is and adopt a new one altogether. But there are powerful interests who like the way things are now, and they convince us to spend all our energy squabbling over things that ultimately mean nothing.

In the spirit of fairness and to reinforce my statement that Democratic politicians are also terrible, I'll share some things I hate about them, briefly. First, since we're talking presidents a lot these days, Obama was a war criminal who murdered innocent civilians in the Middle East using drone strikes. The immigrant concentration camps that Trump now uses were also built under Obama's administration. This is another thing I hate about Democrats: they pay lip service to civil rights on campaign and then turn around and support the same racist, xenophobic programs that Republicans wanted once they get elected. Lastly, I really hate their policies on gun ownership. I think one of the most dangerous routes any country can go down is disarming its citizens, and that's a big ticket issue for Democrats.

Politics seems pointless in the U. S. largely because it is -- if you only talk about Republicans vs. Democrats. But politics is a much more diverse field than that. There are many options beyond what the two parties propose, and voting is not the be all end all of political action. Cynicism about the way the system runs is good if it shows you that we need a new system. It's bad if it becomes hopelessness and lets us excuse the worst crimes of humanity as "just the way things are." I don't think things have to be this way and hopefully you don't either.

[megacycle]

I would like things to be a bit more open and free... but the world isn't like that. If you happen to be religious you'll be hated by a select group of people. If you happen to be democrat you'll be hated by a select group of people. If you happen to be republican you'll be hated by a select group of people. If you happen to be liberal you'll be hated by a select group of people. If you happen to be conservative you'll be hated by a select group of people.

Nobody can have an open conversation about politics or policies or share an opinion that differs from another group, because it will lead to an argument... people don't know how to put themselves in the shoes of another person. I had a co-worker from a different department complain about my boss... the way he talks to people or treats people that work under him, because he can be condescending sometimes. I defended him because I know him and work with him almost everyday. I know who is pulling their weight and who isn't pulling their weight in our department, so I know why he acts the way he acts. He's acted that way towards me too, and I deserved it. She didn't want to hear it and ended the conversation. She's not in a management position so she doesn't know what he has to deal with... I do, because he shares it with me because I ask about it. My boss is honest... brutally honest. You could ask him who his favorite associate is and he would respond without missing a beat, "I hate you all equally." and he treats us equally. I prefer that over a boss who plays favorites.

It's not just a politics problem... it's a people problem... people lock themselves into an echo chamber with other people who only agree with their opinions, people with differing opinions get blocked on social media and are avoided in real life, like the plague. Does that make it a social media problem or did social media just accelerate the problem. I don't have the answers... I just know that tolerance is at an all time low. I've seen the ugly side of people that I used to respect. I don't like it.

[RainySunshine]

@Rainberry I'm still working on my response to your post. I'll also thank you again for taking the time to post it. It'll be some time before my response can do it justice, but I'm getting there.

Just being honest with you, I don't think she cares or wants a direct response.  She probably won't respond back.  She's not someone who will debate.  Just thought I would save you some time. 

What I'd really, really like to hear from somebody -- anybody -- is how you can support Donald Trump's reelection. This isn't a rhetorical question meant to insult Trump backers either. I just...I don't understand. Please, if anyone is genuinely a fan of our president and wants to see him reelected, please just tell me why. I'm sure you have good reasons, and I'd like to share my ideas with you as well.

As well, everything you asked here could be flipped right back around with people asking the same question about the Democrats, Kamala Harris, and Joe Biden.  Many will just ask how can you be excited by Joe Biden and Dems going further to the left.

I do sometimes wish we HAD a third party that was competitive. But as it is now, that just isn't happening.

[Graymist]

I will say this, despite not being a enthusiastic believer in 2016 and having voted for the blue ticket in my past many times, I cannot deny the great progress done the past four years.  Economically, it has been great.  I have personally never been at this high a level with my job.  Our company gave everyone raises a few years back during the economic boom (Which they have never done in the past) and then they gave us raises again this year! My taxes are lower and my family's drug costs actually have gone done.  I never thought I would see that happen. Our country has been safe from outside threats and I do believe Pres. Trump is seen as a force among our enemies.  They don't know what he will do, and that might be the best deterrent.  I have seen and witnessed his "America first" policy and it has so far been nothing but good for my family.  I do believe our economy will come roaring back, and early numbers are showing great growth.  Our markets are already running at pre-pandemic levels again.  So I have officially changed my blue vote to a red this time around.  I am not ashamed to say that either.

Morally speaking as well, I have shifted to be more conservative as my young and rebellious ways now seem silly and full naivety.

I don't like to debate or talk politics much ever, but I saw some questions and I wanted to answer.  Have a nice day everyone who posts in this thread!

It would be interesting to have a PSF poll with two options, Biden or Trump.  Anonymous of course and no way for people to respond.  Just see what people choose a week before the election.

[Zracken3]

@megacycle If you think it's an inherent problem of human nature, I can't really argue. I would say that it's the systems we've had forced on us that push us to be so vicious and sectarian, but I can't offer any evidence to prove it. All I know is that I can't believe that things have to be the way they are because the way they are sucks for a whole lot of people. I have to believe we can do better. I echo your despair for people's lack of empathy, but I think it ought to be applied universally. For example, why is your coworker so mean to your boss? Why do some people not "pull their weight?" You could say it's just laziness or selfishness, but I find that people are usually more complex than that. It doesn't make what they're doing (or not doing) right, but it should be considered when we judge somebody.

@RainySunshine I would hope that she would care enough to at least hear what I have to say, but, ultimately, I want to respond for everyone's benefit. Even if the debate won't continue, just having different viewpoints available for people to read is, I think, politically healthy.

For your other quote, I would say that I'm not excited for Joe Biden and Kamala Harris. I think they would represent something of a return to "normalcy" which might be welcome after four years of Trump, but the situation before Trump was not good either.

As for how someone could be excited about a shift to the left -- which, I will say, Harris and Biden do not represent -- I would say that we'd first need to define "left." If "left" means more gun control and tokenism under a Democratic hegemony, then, no, a shift to the "left" sounds miserable. If "left" means an actual shift in U. S. politics away from authoritarianism and capitalism -- which, again, Biden and Harris do not represent -- then, yes, a shift to the left would be wonderful. I seriously doubt that will ever happen under the current system, but I can explain a bit why that would be welcome.

First, authoritarianism is awful. Power can corrupt even the most incorruptible people as they seek to maintain their hold over it. They might even start off with good intentions, but the need to hold on to power will drive them to compromise on their principles. So minimizing the amount of power that our leaders hold would do us all good. Biden and Harris are politicians, so I don't trust them to do this, but it would be slightly better than the strongman, nationalistic attitude of our current president.

Second, capitalism is awful. It is, in fact, completely antithetical to democracy. We spend about one third of our lifetimes at work. It's also the source of our well-being; you have to earn wages for a living. And yet, nearly every company is run like a mini dictatorship. Your boss tells you what to do, and you must do it. If you don't, you get fired and lose your livelihood. There is no debate, there is no compromise, their is no understanding. You have no say in the way the place you work at, the place you depend on to make ends meet, is run. Not unless you have a really, really cool boss or are blessed enough to be part of a workers' cooperative. How is such a system acceptable in a supposedly free country? What rights do you have that couldn't be threatened by your employer firing you? I don't blame people for upholding capitalism after 50 years of Cold War propaganda -- I certainly did for awhile -- but it really makes no sense to organize an economy this way if you value individual liberty.

[megacycle]

I don't think a jarring shift to the left will help at all... If anything it might make things worse. We need to draw people on the left and right back towards the center. We need politicians that will actually communicate with each other over issues and find a common ground solution that's best for the people not the party.

Capitalism gives people an opportunity to create their own company. There must be leadership in a company in order for the company to function, tasks are given to people and they must be fulfilled. If tasks are being fulfilled then the chance of being fired is low. If tasks aren't being fulfilled then the chance of being fired is high. That's to be expected. People who do not do the job that they are hired to do should be terminated. The person who created the company should have full control over the company. The free market gives people an opportunity to create their own business... The alternative is giving full control of the economy to the government. Turning all these mini dictatorships into a full blown dictatorship.

If an employee isn't happy with their job, they should find another job that they'll enjoy or take a chance and create their own business. Unions also exist to protect employees from being terminated unfairly.

[Zracken3]

@Graymist I can't take away the benefits you and your family have seen over the last few years. For you and them, those are very real, and I would not hold it against you to be in favor of that. I would offer two words of warning though. First, economics is always a tricky subject in politics. It's very hard to say what is and is not the result of individual policies and presidents. The drug prices and tax cuts are obvious, but pay raises and career advancement are not so much. But, for that reason, I cannot prove that Trump's actions are either good or bad. If you believe they've helped you and your family, again I can't take that from you. My second point would be that, while things have gotten better for you, consider that they may not have gotten better for others. I'm not sure how things really are at the moment -- again, it's hard to tell with economics -- but try not to let your vote be decided only by what's good for you. By all means, vote for things you think would be in your interest, but think about other people's needs as well. Not saying you haven't, but I just wanted to say that.

As for Trump's handling of foreign threats, I think he really hasn't done that great. His talks with Kim Jong-un I think could be a step in the right direction. Even his appeasements of Vladimir Putin's Russia might be a good move, Russian election interference aside. Where I think Trump really fails is in diplomacy with our allies. His "America first" attitude plays into this as well. For all of America's great and terrible weapons, our greatest military assets are, undeniably, our allies. Trump's antagonistic attitude towards them has started to make many of them imagine a time when they won't be able to rely on American support, and that would be a tremendous blow to American global influence. Besides that, I think Trump has needlessly flared tensions with Iran and Palestine that makes America less safe, not more. I appreciate him not further escalating things in Iraq and Afghanistan, but he hasn't ended those wars either.

I think your conservative shift is interesting because I have shifted to the left as I get older. My earlier forays into politics were much more conservative, and I have voted for Republicans in the past. Now, I consider myself back then as naïve too.

I'd also like to see a poll done to see what people think. I think it's a little short notice though -- wouldn't be enough time for people to vote. 

[megacycle]

I've clearly become more conservative as I grow older, I do want equality and strive towards that goal. I just feel like the censorship, media bias, and cancel culture has become ridiculous. Movie stars and regular people being harassed because they might be christian or don't want to pick sides. I'm done for the night. I should be in bed. Goodnight everybody!

[Wolfwood]

If "left" means an actual shift in U. S. politics away from authoritarianism and capitalism then, yes, a shift to the left would be wonderful.

Please share a political example of what you consider a good example of a government you want to live under.  What do you call this political system you like and what country currently uses it?

Second, capitalism is awful. It is, in fact, completely antithetical to democracy. We spend about one third of our lifetimes at work. It's also the source of our well-being; you have to earn wages for a living. And yet, nearly every company is run like a mini dictatorship. Your boss tells you what to do, and you must do it. If you don't, you get fired and lose your livelihood. There is no debate, there is no compromise, their is no understanding.

All typical anti-capitalism criticisms for sure.  You alluded to but didn't mention income inequality.  But I also have to say, what world do you live in?  Capitalism and hard work helped make America what it is.  It helped us modernize and grow at an insane rate and allow for everyone to enjoy a prosperity that had never been seen in the world.  Sure there are things to improve, but your solution of getting rid of capitalism is not the answer at all. 

I'm also sorry if you have a boss that treats you like that.  I don't know anyone who works in any company or business that is like that. Even big corporations, at the local level, people build relations and care for one another.  If they can help a fellow co-worker out they will. 

I will say it is crap that people can work full time or even part time, and still not have a comfortable life style. But that may be the issue, what do we define as "comfortable?" Are we still trying to attain the boomer middle class lifestyle as comfortable?  The lifestyle most people in the work force today grew up in? Maybe we need to redefine what a "comfortable lifestyle" is and not base it on the past?  Maybe a suburban home, a fence, and a car isn't the right image anymore?



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Then here is some other points mentioned in other posts I couldn't figure out how to multi-quote.  You asked for some evidence on things posted by Raine and what not... 

You asked which percentage of Americans did the Trump economy help?  Turns out it was the majority.  The leftwing Washington Post even admits this.  America's middle class is growing for the first time in the past 20 some years instead of shrinking.  As well, during Trump's term wages have improved for the first time in a generation, and they are at an all-time high. People may have made more money as well thanks to companies passing along some of the savings due to their tax cuts as well. In 2019, the 25% lowest-paid Americans enjoyed a 4.5% income boost in November 2019, which outpaces a 2.9% gain in earnings for the country’s highest-paid workers in the same time period.  Low-wage workers are benefiting from higher minimum wages and from corporations that are increasing entry-level pay.  Possibly tied to the tax breaks as well. 

Some people were saying the stock market has soared, and they are right.  It hit more record highs in the past four years, then in the entire past 30 years combined.  Even CNN admits this.  Shocking...   I don't trust polls, but when even a CNN Poll shows Trump's approval ratings at an all time high and American's doing good in the economy at an all time high... you know something is up.

I will add a few things not mentioned.  Trump recently signed three bills to benefit Native people. One gives compensation to the Spokane tribe for loss of their lands in the mid-1900s, one funds Native language programs, and the third gives federal recognition to the Little Shell Tribe of Chippewa Indians in Montana.  This is just a tiny example, but there has been SO much work if you follow certain circles like I do, that the Trump admin has done for our Native American people.  It is never reported, but some of this stuff is truly wonderful.  I wish it was shared. I wish I knew of a website that had all of it listed to share with you, but I don't know of any.  I get it through regional Native American news journals mailed to me.

Did you know this? Trump signed a bill making CBD and Hemp legal.

Violent crime had fallen every year Trump's been in office, prior to the pandemic.  Prior, violent crime had been rising the two years before he was elected.

Gas prices sure got lower, which I am sure everyone is happy about.  Cars also have gotten more fuel efficient, despite regulations and red tape being cut. But this comes at the cost of using our own oil reserves which I do not like.  We need to be saving it for a rainy day.  Thankfully we have many companies working on alternative energy cars too. 

I am confirming the mass amount of manufacturing jobs coming back and helping mainly blue color areas of the country, especially areas hardest hit with jobs moving overseas.  Forbes says that the Obama admin saw millions of jobs lost in his first two years, and those jobs never came back. Trump brought back jobs manufacturing jobs at a very fast rate and continues to do so according to monthly reports and business magazines.  To bring jobs back, the Trump Admin has focused on leveling the playing field, to lower costs in the US to do business, and make it financially smart to do business in the US. With a mixed bag of tax-code improvements, removal of red tape, new trade agreements, and competitive tariffs, the U.S. economy is more insulated from failure. Even the Federal Reserve is willing to lower rates if other countries harm the U.S. trading environment.

I am confirming that unemployment hit all time lows for whites, blacks, hispanics, asians, and all other races in the US under the Trump administration.  It continued to go down even prior to the virus hitting.  Thankfully it is going down again.  As well, employment for all ethnicities within the US hit record highs.  Also record low unemployment for women overall in the US under Trump admin.

Remember the Flint, Michigan water fiasco?  While not political... I am making it political.  City run by Democrats, people poisoned by toxic water.  Well... That was an ongoing thing that started in the Obama Admin (I am not blaming Obama Admin for this, it's the city's fault).  But years after the issue was discovered, not much was being done.  Well, in 2016 when Trump got elected, Trump told the EPA to fix it.  They did.  Flint is now drinking fresh water again.   

Trump signed a sex trafficking bill and so far, it has been very successful and stopping this horrible act, thanks to proper funding of our law enforcement agencies to carry out these programs.  Here is more on the bills.  The Stop Enabling Sex Traffickers Act (SESTA) and Allow States and Victims to Fight Online Sex Trafficking Act (FOSTA).

Trump signed a bill to require airports to provide spaces for breastfeeding moms.  Let Mom's feed! Women's health, the more you know.

The President signed the biggest wilderness protection & conservation bill in a decade and designated 375,000 acres as protected land.  That's pretty cool.  I like wilderness.  He also signed the Save our Seas Act which funds $10 million per year to clean tons of plastic & garbage from the ocean.


I would continue, but my dinner is done cooking, so I will leave with this note on healthcare.  He signed a bill this year (2020) allowing some drug imports from Canada so that prescription prices would go down.  I can't find the links right now, but there are tons.  As well as drug price transparency and lowered costs to the elderly, low income, and better protections for our Veterans.  In short hospitals will now be required to post their standard charges for services, which include the discounted price a hospital is willing to accept.  As well Trump signed an executive order this year that forces all healthcare providers to disclose the cost of their services so that Americans can compare prices and shop and knowing how much less providers charge insurance companies. 

In the eight years prior to Trump’, prescription drug prices increased by an average of 3.6% per year. Under Trump, drug prices have seen year-over-year declines in nine of the last ten months, with a 1.1% drop as of the most recent month.  Not to mention the new executive orders designed to cut costs, too early to tell, but it seems favorable.

Okay, dinner time. 

[megacycle]

Thank you @Wolfwood for this plethora of information and links, I was aware of some of these things but didn't know about all of them. I'm sure there is more that could be shared but I appreciate you taking time out of your day to post what you did.

[Zracken3]

Please share a political example of what you consider a good example of a government you want to live under.  What do you call this political system you like and what country currently uses it?

I will share my ideas on this, but only after I make my counterpoints to what you’ve given. The reason for this is because I suspect that the moment I name the ideology I believe in, I will cease to be taken seriously by anyone here. Hopefully I can make my points before then.

All typical anti-capitalism criticisms for sure.  You alluded to but didn't mention income inequality.

I had plans to mention income inequality, but I was looking more into it before bringing it up. But, yeah, an economy that doesn’t work for everybody is not an economy worth upholding.

But I also have to say, what world do you live in?

The same one as you, I believe. I'm on Earth at the moment.

Capitalism and hard work helped make America what it is.  It helped us modernize and grow at an insane rate and allow for everyone to enjoy a prosperity that had never been seen in the world.  Sure there are things to improve, but your solution of getting rid of capitalism is not the answer at all.

Capitalism and hard work are not synonymous. A person is perfectly capable of being industrious without the threat of homeless and starvation. Capitalism – the private ownership of the things people need to survive – did not modernize us; technology, science, and rationalism did. And I’d also like to point out that where capitalism may have caused prosperity, it has also caused unjustifiable suffering along the way. You mention Native Americans later on. While I don’t think capitalism is solely to blame for the atrocities committed to the indigenous peoples of America, the greed and profit-seeking it encourages surely made things worse, and many dark actions were justified under the guise of economic development. Nowadays, capitalism is global, and rich nations such as the United States only enjoy their wealth of consumer goods on the backs of wage slaves in developing countries.

I'm also sorry if you have a boss that treats you like that.  I don't know anyone who works in any company or business that is like that. Even big corporations, at the local level, people build relations and care for one another.  If they can help a fellow co-worker out they will.

Many of the protections and benefits we enjoy in the developed world are not a result of capitalism but of the actions of unions and political activists that actively opposed it. Businesses were forced to make concessions to these groups or risk the possibility of losing their influence altogether. Things like minimum wage, the 40-hour work week, and the two-day weekend were not handed down from the top; they were fought for from the bottom up, and some even died for it. And people care for one another because they’re people. Empathy is a natural human emotion. All of these things occur in spite of capitalism not because of it.

I will say it is crap that people can work full time or even part time, and still not have a comfortable life style. But that may be the issue, what do we define as "comfortable?" Are we still trying to attain the boomer middle class lifestyle as comfortable?  The lifestyle most people in the work force today grew up in? Maybe we need to redefine what a "comfortable lifestyle" is and not base it on the past?  Maybe a suburban home, a fence, and a car isn't the right image anymore?

I agree that people who work should be entitled to a comfortable lifestyle. I also don’t know what “comfortable” means in this context. I don’t think the suburban ideal is what we ought to go for though. There’s more nuance to this than I’m willing to go into here.

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And now for the Donald Trump stuff……

The Washington Post article you sited doesn’t say what you say it says. It makes no mention that the “majority” of Americans have benefitted nor does it talk about a growing middle class. It does, however, quote a macroeconomist by the name of Robert Gordon as saying “wages are still stagnating, average hourly earnings [growth] of 2.8 over last year is about the same as the consumer price index, so real wages haven’t grown at all.” So, there’s that.

The rest of the economic stats you list all come from whitehouse.gov – the literal official website of the President. This one doesn’t site any sources, while this one tries to but is still blatantly omitting data to make the President look good. I can’t trust these sources at all. Economic trends are also very hard to link to specific policies or actions as The Washington Post article you sited mentions.

The CNN article you linked also doesn’t say what you say it says. It does make a good point about whether or not this economic growth is sustainable. Usually, the sensible thing to do when the economy is good is to raise taxes so that the government has more funds available for the next recession. Cutting taxes during a period of economic growth could certainly spur further growth in the short term, but what’ll happen when the good times are over? It also mentions income inequality again.

I also don’t trust polls, but the CNN one you list again doesn’t say what you say it says. It says that Trump’s approval rating on the economy was at an all-time high at 56%, but not his general approval rating. In fact, his economic approval rating was the only one above 50%. His general favorability rating was only 45%, with 54% having a negative view. This was the highest favorability rating since his first 100 days in office, but not of all time. I’d also point out that this article is from May of 2019 – before the COVID-19 pandemic. Here’s a link to the FiveThirtyEight aggregated poll for the President’s approval rating.

I looked into what you mentioned on Native American issues. I found a The Hill article that mentions the same things, and it seems pretty legit. And I have nothing bad to say here really. Kudos to Donald Trump for supporting indigenous peoples. I’d like to think we can do much more than this as a country, but good news is good news.

For the cannabis thing, Trump is not a supporter of legal marijuana really. His Attorney General, Jeff Sessions, rescinded the Cole Memorandum in 2018, and Democrats had to introduce a bill called the Sensible Enforcement of Cannabis Act to replace it. It’s been sitting in committee for awhile now. Personally, I don’t think it’s a big issue for Trump, and he’s likely willing to ignore it. He’d never support legalizing it though as it would upset the socially conservative and evangelical parts of his base.

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I would really, really like to look into the other things you and Rainberry brought up, but I just don’t have the time right now, unfortunately. I will now proceed to dismantle all ethos and credibility I may have had (and, thus, render all this work meaningless) by sharing with you my political persuasion of choice.


I am an anarcho-communist. That is anarchy plus communism. Anarchy comes from Greek an- meaning “without” and archos meaning “rulers.” So, “without rulers.” As an ideology, anarchism holds that no hierarchy or authority ought to exist that cannot immediately and reasonably justify itself as necessary, and anywhere where hierarchy is not required, it should be abolished. Anarchists do not believe in disorder or chaos. In fact, the common A within an O symbol popularly used to represent anarchy is supposed to stand for “anarchy is order.” I can refer to further reading if anyone is interested, but, if not, that’s fine. I don’t expect many people to be.

Communism – or socialism – is the idea that the means of production ought to be collectively owned by the people. In simpler terms, the things people need to survive and the things used to make those things should not be owned by individuals but by the communities who need them. Communism – or socialism – is not when the government (or state) owns everything. That is called “state capitalism.” Some communists think a transition period of state capitalism is necessary before achieving full communism. I do not. I can, again, point people to further resources if they are interested in learning more. But, again, I don’t expect many people to be.

Thank you all for being so engaging. I feel much more informed now than I did before. Hopefully we can continue to have productive discussions like this in the future.

[Zracken3]

I don't think a jarring shift to the left will help at all... If anything it might make things worse. We need to draw people on the left and right back towards the center. We need politicians that will actually communicate with each other over issues and find a common ground solution that's best for the people not the party.

Capitalism gives people an opportunity to create their own company. There must be leadership in a company in order for the company to function, tasks are given to people and they must be fulfilled. If tasks are being fulfilled then the chance of being fired is low. If tasks aren't being fulfilled then the chance of being fired is high. That's to be expected. People who do not do the job that they are hired to do should be terminated. The person who created the company should have full control over the company. The free market gives people an opportunity to create their own business... The alternative is giving full control of the economy to the government. Turning all these mini dictatorships into a full blown dictatorship.

If an employee isn't happy with their job, they should find another job that they'll enjoy or take a chance and create their own business. Unions also exist to protect employees from being terminated unfairly.

Only people who already have money can feasibly start their own business. Those who have no start-up capital have no chance of ever developing a business unless they can convince other people who already have money to lend them some. The power is entirely in the hands of those with money.

Leadership should exist where tasks need to be coordinated in business or otherwise. The authority of leadership should also come from the consent of those being led. This holds true for government as well as business. If you start a business and require the labor of other people to accomplish your goals, those people should have just as much say over how things are done as you do. Otherwise, you're just looking for coerced labor. Your point of "do task = not fired, don't do task = fired" is precisely that: coerced labor.

The government and capital are not the only ones capable of ownership. Communities can own things as well -- the people can own things. This isn't a new idea either; the commons used to be a thing.

Your argument that those who don't like their job should just find another job speaks to a fundamental flaw in free market logic. If you want to quit your job, your employer will just find someone to replace you. In the meantime, they'll make out alright. You, on the other hand, lose access to your source of income. That means no food, no house, no clothes, no medicine, no transport until you can find a different source of income. The relationship is not equal; your employer has much more leverage over you than you have over them. When every job is like this, changing which one you have doesn't really get you anywhere. And I already mentioned how starting your own business is not an option.

Unions do exist to protect people from unjust termination. I like unions and organized labor. I wish labor were much more organized than it currently is. Hopefully I and everyone else can work on that.

[megacycle]

So all these youtube celebs started with money. Most that I followed started their career while working a part time or full time job. Some started while living with their parents, posting videos consistently to gain traction.

Artists sell their craft through commissions or creating comics and other crafts like badges, buttons, and other decorative items; while also working a part time or full time job. They used sites like patreon and subscribestar to create a place where people who like their content can donate money so they can receive more content. Most of these people started from nothing but have built a career around a hobby that they enjoy.

There are crowd sourcing sites to help people get an idea for a product off the ground and into the hands of their backers and customers.

Some people study hard to get scholarships so they can go to a prestigious college. Some want to be doctors, lawyers, actors, writers, and more; and they spend years learning so they can achieve their dream.

So by your belief none of this should've been possible for anybody. That is the power of the free market, capitalism. Removing the free market will put the ball in the government's court, now they decide who can do what, removing our ability to choose our careers. It would be a dictatorship.

[kiku]

I admit I don't visit this thread so much; I'm a rather unpolitical person and I'm outside the US, so I won't join a debate here. But there is something I'd like to say:
First of all, from what I see here whenever I have a curious look into this thread, I really appreciate how everybody here (or most people at least; I can only speak of what I've seen) is respectful of other users' opinions, even when discussions get a bit heated sometimes. That's truly rare on the internet, and it makes me feel one more time that I've come to the right place here.

Also, @Zracken3, hats off to you for your courage to state your political persuasion of an anarcho-communist.
I sympathize with that idea very much although I can't say I would agree 100%. A lot of what you have written in your posts here makes me nod in agreement - and some things you have written make me shake my head - but I'd like to assure you of my solidarity in this point.

Now, off to writing unpolitical stuff again. 
Have a great day everyone!