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The Lounge => Television & Film Discussion => Topic started by: DEEcat98 on 2021-05-01 23:44:20

Title: Nostalgia also had Bad Shows
Post by: DEEcat98 on 2021-05-01 23:44:20

So is anyone aware that there are people who say that modern tv shows are bad while the more nostalgic ones are much better? Well to burst these people's bubbles, the 80's, 90's, early 2000's, and much before also had bad shows as well.

Title: Re: Nostalgia also had Bad Shows
Post by: Darrin on 2021-05-02 00:12:32

Totally, I'd say a majority of cartoons from the 70s and 80s I didn't like.  Heck, I didn't like many in the 90s either.

Title: Re: Nostalgia also had Bad Shows
Post by: timmelon on 2021-05-02 01:16:03

Well, I can agree that 70’s were not so great in Western animation (TVTropes even calls it a Dark Age (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/TheDarkAgeOfAnimation)). Some shows from 90-00’s hurt my eyes with crudely drawn characters (after them, FiM apparently attracted a lot of people by a cast full of eye candies ^-^), and Dark Age series did the same by their limited animations ;D.

Title: Re: Nostalgia also had Bad Shows
Post by: MasterXtreme on 2021-05-02 15:47:49

Yeah, there were many "bad" shows in terms of quality.  Even writing was very poor, especially in the Hanna Barbera stable of cartoons.  Talk about low effort, and awful animation that was reused all the time.  Even ideas and show premises were the same...

If they at least put some writing effort, the others could be forgiven.

A lot of not-so good action cartoons in the 80s as well.

I would say the 90's had a lot of "overly animated" and ugly cartoons.  I would argue the Classy Ksupo cartoons while very ugly looking, at least had good writing for the most part.

Title: Re: Nostalgia also had Bad Shows
Post by: DEEcat98 on 2021-05-03 16:11:42

Also, I guess children shows from the 90’s and early 2000’s that were hated by teenagers and young adults would also count as bad nostalgic shows, right?

Title: Re: Nostalgia also had Bad Shows
Post by: MasterXtreme on 2021-05-03 17:17:51

Well if they are nostalgic to you, then yes.

Title: Re: Nostalgia also had Bad Shows
Post by: DEEcat98 on 2021-05-03 17:49:14

There are people that do consider 90’s and early 2000’s children shows to be nostalgic, so I guess it can count.

Title: Re: Nostalgia also had Bad Shows
Post by: RainySunshine on 2021-05-03 18:38:02

Of course.  Nostalgia will change by age group and person. 

I can think of many bad shows in the 90s and 2000s.  TONS.

Title: Re: Nostalgia also had Bad Shows
Post by: DEEcat98 on 2021-05-03 20:54:11

Many people pointed out at how the 2000’s had bad shows, but then they considered that the 2000’s got worst for television by the middle to end of the decade. Then when the 2010’s came with Adventure Time, Regular Show, and My Little Pony, people were starting to slowly go back into watching tv shows again. Speaking of which during that time, MLP was being the only children’s show that was being appreciated by teenagers and young adults.

Title: Re: Nostalgia also had Bad Shows
Post by: Silverwing on 2021-05-03 21:18:59

Yeah, the 2000s were bad for children's shows overall.  There were some good shows, but mixed in with a lot of not good and mediocre.  Shows like Chowder and Flapjack came out in a time when many other were not good, but from those two shows came the talent of many writers who brought in good shows in the next decade.

Pre-skool children's television jumped off a cliff after the late 2000s and into the 2010s.  We are still in that garbage realm with those.

Title: Re: Nostalgia also had Bad Shows
Post by: Soda on 2021-05-04 22:23:39

Just like children now will look back on all the kids shows they watched on Youtube and think of how bad they are.

Title: Re: Nostalgia also had Bad Shows
Post by: Graymist on 2021-05-30 17:21:45

Nostalgia isn't how you describe it in the title or description.  I think you might be a tad confused about what nostalgia is.

Nostalgia is a feeling.  Nostalgia is a feeling of remembrance to something from your past.  That itself can be a good or bad memory, but it is something that harkens the past.

Nostalgia is sitting in a theater and looking down at the floor and it's silly carpeted design, holding a box of popcorn, and remembering the adverts before the movie you are so excited to watch.  All the smells of a theater and the hushed whispering from the audience as the film begins.

Title: Nostalgic Nostradamus
Post by: NostradamusTheSeer on 2021-07-04 17:57:25

   To go back even further, some cartoons from way back in the thirties and forties, frankly, stink.  I mean, Charles M. "Chuck" Jones-- unmitigated genius of animation, no denying.  The same year he made the inspired "Dover Boys (https://looneytunes.fandom.com/wiki/The_Dover_Boys#Production)", 1942, he also farted out "The Bird Came C.O.D (https://looneytunes.fandom.com/wiki/The_Bird_Came_C.O.D.)".  Ol' Chuck himself went on record as saying if he had his druthers, he'd have burned every film he did before 1948 and piss on the ashes. (Okay, I added the "piss on the ashes", part, but it sounds like a sentiment Chuck Jones would echo.)   

   And Disney, woo-hoo, don't get me started on them.  Sure, you have your A-listers like Mickey and Goofy and Donald and Jiminy frigging Cricket, but then you get some downright weird stuff like this.

(https://media1.tenor.com/images/c003952b3aa56f5e98fb08dff9a1b900/tenor.gif)

I did a whole thing in my blog (https://www.deviantart.com/haggismccrablice/art/Madcap-Screencaps-6-Cartoon-Cookie-Porn-875751136) about this one.  I'm like, "What... the... hell? Is this literally food porn (http://food porn)?"  :-0
 The story goes that Walt Disney once complained to his staff about the quality of the studio's output, so they challenged him to direct a picture himself. (sings)   It was such a turd (http://=https://disney.fandom.com/wiki/The_Golden_Touch) that he was all  "Not one word",  :-X   and never tried his hand at directing agaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaain!...    :{

   Perhaps, next post, I should look at Columbia and Terrytoons.  I find a lot of people are sharply divided on their output--it's either pretty good, or really, really bad.  :o    :-]    >:(

Title: Re: Nostalgia also had Bad Shows
Post by: Rainberry on 2021-07-04 20:39:59

That was rather interesting to read... and why did Disney make that scene?  My word. 

I guess boys will be boys?  Nothing wrong... it's just... well... yeah.

Title: Nostalgia neuralgia
Post by: NostradamusTheSeer on 2021-07-10 12:59:03

Ironically, one of Disney's top animators was named-- you ready for this? -- Dick Huemer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Huemer#Career).  With a moniker like that, the guy was born to make cartoons.    :D

Yes, a lot of the early animators like Paul Terry and Amadeen J. Van Beuren (another great name for cartoonin') were heavily influenced by Walt Disney... so much so, in fact, he actually threatened to sue the crap out of the latter (https://cartoonresearch.com/index.php/animation-anecdotes-232/) for turning in characters that were pretty much carbon copies of Mickey Mouse--sans the charm, of course--though in the end it was all a lot of bluster (maybe because it's so hard to make a plajo accusation stick; maybe it's because these were young studios trying to find their way).  Warner Bros., too, played follow-the-leader in its early years, with characters like Piggy, Foxy and Roxy and Goopy Gear, but about 1938 or so Bob Clampett, Fred "Tex" Avery started getting away from that stuff (Chuck Jones took a bit longer, but he eventually got there, though before he found his own two feet to stand on, he played it sort of safe by aping ol' Tex's style for a few more years).  Van Beuren, stodgy and resistant to change, stayed with the cutesy-poo crap like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSRh_srJE5g), and, coupled with his own failing health, it's probably the reason his studio didn't last long.  It closed down in '36.   

I think you'll find the history of most every major cartoon studio follows about the same--a rough start (esp. those in the '20s and '30's) with forgettable characters and a lot of misfires early on, followed by a creative boom in the forties (the war was mother's milk to a lot of these young houses), with lots of turnover, shakeups, hirings, firings, and migration between studios (smartest thing Columbia (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Creator/ColumbiaCartoons) ever did was hire a lot of ex-Disney animators after a huge strike in 1941; it was this period they made some of their best...and of course, some of their worst, ranging from the simply forgettable to the utterly derivative to the downright fecund). The fifties saw trends like the rise (and fall) of 3-D films and the newfound popularity of television, which meant fewer shorts distributed in movie theaters. This led to lower revenue, studio foldings, more turnovers and migration, but also meant a virtually untapped new market for an enterprising thinker.  This heralded the the rise of pioneers in limited animation--UPA , latter-day MGM, Hanna-Barbera, later, going into the sixties and seventies, De-Patie-Freleng and Filmation--which get us to my generation.

We had the good and the bad of  it--shows featuring quirky characters and largely experimental writing (the names "Bob" and "Eve Forward" turn up on a lot of these shows--again, it's like their parents wanted these kids to go into the cartoon biz from the day they popped out) , but characterized by low budgets, flat animation, recycled scripts, two-dimensional characterization, and shows that read like 22-minute toy commercials. Sure, there were a few standouts, but a lot of passable and very forgettable stuff you didn't see for years, until, through a series of trades, deals, and handshakes, someone bought these now-defunct studios' old libraries and showed them on networks like qubo and MeTv somewhere between 4 a.m. infomercials and reruns of Lassie and Westerns.

And when I say "forgettable", I mean forgettable.  I mean, until it was mentioned in the DuckTales reboot, I hadn't thought of Disney's Gummi Bears in years.  Now I want to go hunt up Dumbo's Circus and the "hand-clappin' " number... or maybe Milli Vanilli's appearance in the Mario Bros. cartoon, aired just weeks before that whole scandal killed their career (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milli_Vanilli#Lip-syncing_exposure_and_media_backlash,_1989%E2%80%931991).

Title: Re: Nostalgia also had Bad Shows
Post by: Rainberry on 2021-07-10 13:17:27

Have you ever considered making Youtube videos or your cartoon knowledge?  You could make some cash if you make good videos on topics like this.

Thanks for sharing.

Title: More Nostradamus nostalgia
Post by: NostradamusTheSeer on 2021-07-10 16:24:52

Well, I'd probably need to learn to use PayPal or some other online banker to truly monetize effectively,    :nervoussmile:  Plus, I'd worry that might be a somewhat over-saturated market-- there's a blogger I follow by the name of Ferris Wheelhouse who does reviews of old MM/LT cartoons and thoughtful essays on things like Elmer Fudd and guns (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BK2KHRIXW0w), and Chuck Jones (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJmApVrn5NE)' Road Runner cartoons (http://Road Runner cartoons).  Might be nice to get a guest spot in one of those vids, though, to share thoughts and theories.

For example: my generations' cartoons may have been typified by a dearth of any real creativity and innovation, static poses, and eye-blistering pink-and-purple color palettes, but even in the heyday of creator-driven cartoons, it wasn't all roses, either. The supervisors at Warners were still under contract to put out something like, say, 40 Porky Pig cartoons a year.  And from what I've read, they hated Porky (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Trivia/PorkyPig) over there. So they'd often get around this mandate by giving the pig as little screen time as possible, say, barely two minutes out of a seven-minute picture. Cartoons like "The Daffy Doc" (Clampett, 1938), and the spot-gag heavy "Who's Who In the Zoo" (McCabe, 1942) are absolute masteries of this little cheat. Studio bosses back then were a lot of clueless boneheads, too.    ;)

You think it's all about the money now, but while a pretty affable sort, producer Leon Schlesinger was so tight-fisted he could squeeze a nickel 'til the bufffalo shat. As long as the public was going to theaters and paying to watch their cartoons, he largely let his directors have free rein (or a least as far as the meager budgets he afforded them would allow), only stepping in and saying something when they felt they got too out of hand. It's said Chuck Jones would have been canned straightaway over Dover Boys, but they let him stay on because they didn't really have anyone else to replace him with... and then, whaddaya know, Columbia turns around and rips him right off (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoG0f3Yl2mg&list=PLTC5PFzUSkTXT96PCQVaQmuW7ui0uFjNP&index=142).  Little wonder we stated seeing a more cynical side of Chuck as early as "Fresh Airedale" (1948), which became full-blown curmudgeonry as the decades passed.

One good thing the nineties had going for them was that a few of the old directors were still alive and willing to mentor young writer and artists...which is what I think partly led to that decade's big animation Renaissance. Tex Avery was brought out of retirement to help teach young TV writers at Hanna-Barbera how to be funny, sadly he would miss the party by some eight years or so; he died in 1980.  :(   Norman McCabe would often sit in on staff meetings at WBA and even ghost-directed on a couple of Tiny Toon Adventures shorts. Chuck Jones founded a  non-profit art institute for seniors and young prospective future animators (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Jones#Later_years) in Costa Mesa, CA.  But all the old guard are gone now; I don't think we have anyone like that these days, do we?  Tom Ruegger, perhaps? Arlene Klasky? John Kricfal...(glass shatters)--never mind.    :-[  :'(

Title: Re: Nostalgia also had Bad Shows
Post by: MasterXtreme on 2021-07-10 21:06:30

You do have stellar knowledge of this stuff.  I wouldn't downplay it.  If you put some effort, you could make some money off it, or simply just enjoy sharing it with people.  I'd be willing to edit videos if you wish to do voice overs.  Maybe we could split the cash if you choose to make money off it.